I know I have talked a lot about my reflections on Spiritual things in recent months. Before Christmas, Chris and I talked to my friend, her husband and their Pastor and his wife. They are such wonderful people! The question that we wanted answered was, "how do you know how to find truth." We believe that the Spirit testifies of truth. They believe, or so it seems, that all spiritual truth will be found in the Bible or will be compatible with the teachings of the Bible because the Bible is inerrant. I accepted a challenge to keep reading the Bible and I am doing so trying to be neutral and childlike in my interpretations of Biblical scripture. I am even trying to listen to their side of things and interpret scripture with their views in mind. I am trying to see where these Calvinist evangelical Christians are coming from. I am even trying to believe what they believe. I am open to truth and I have to say, they have taught me to put more emphasis on being saved through Grace and Faith, which is very true. After all, we could never EVER do enough to save ourselves. It is only through faith in Christ that we are saved. However, faith without works is dead. These people appear to choose to be close minded and so I am not sure they have learned anything good from LDS beliefs. That makes me sad, but I will continue to be open minded and search for truth everywhere. I am so far from perfect but I am trying to understand the truth that is out there and I hope that it will make me a better person. I want to be the type of person that loves everyone, sees the good in all people and does not judge. I work with all types of people of different religions, different backgrounds, different ethnic groups, different ideas and beliefs. I am no better than anyone else and I want to see the good in all people and all truth that is out there. Anyways, this is what I have concluded so far.
There is not a clear and absolute claim in the Bible that says the Bible is the only Scripture out there. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." 2 Timothy 3:16. This does not mean that all scripture is in the 66 books of the Bible. The Bible also is not clear in saying it is inerrant or not. There is no reason to believe that the Bible is absolutely perfect unless you are fearful that God will damn you to hell if you do not believe that it is inerrant or if you do not believe your interpretation is 100% correct. Is that really how God is? If he is the type of being that wants to send the people he created to Hell because they do not understand certain things, (even if they have pure intent in their beliefs and their beliefs cause them to come closer to Christ), then there is nothing we can do about it. That is just the perceived Tyrant that he is. We can just live in fear and be driven by fear. But Chris and I choose to be driven by Faith, not fear. Faith in a God that is perfectly Just and Merciful, that will see into the hearts of all his creations, who will know of their situation in life and their pure intent or lack thereof. I truly believe God loves us all! I have been asking my friend a lot of questions about this wrathful, judgmental God that she sees in the Bible. The wrath and judgement that she sees in the Biblical God appears to outweigh, in her mind, the love and Mercy that I see in the same God. It appears that some people base their closeminded beliefs out of fear while some base their openminded beliefs out of faith. I am very fearful when I try to believe what other Christians believe. How could I get any peace when I know that most of mankind will suffer in hell just because they see things differently. Who cares if I am saved, when others are not saved just because they believe differently, even if they have faith in Christ. There is no peace for me in this and I struggle to understand why my friend tells me I will have peace as long as I accept the Bible in the same way (inerrant way) and interpret it the way she does. Trying to accept the Bible in that way has driven away this peace that I have had so fully in my life!
Some see a Bible that only has the perfect writings of God while others see a Bible that has the perfect inspired writings of God mixed with the imperfect writings and interpretations of Man. And yet some Christians appear to have already cast those who believe the Bible is not perfect, to Hell. That seems very wrong to me. But what I can conclude with that, is that these closeminded people appear to base belief out of fear and not faith. I can not blame them in this. There are many times that the Bible talks of a harsh God. And I agree that the Bible would be the apparent standard to hold truth up to as our carnal minds can lead us astray. But does that mean it is perfect? I choose to focus on God's love for me and for everyone. I choose to focus on a merciful God that will accept the faith, even a tiny seed of faith, of people who are pure of heart, and are seeking truth with sincere intent through the Holy Spirit, even if they are imperfect vessels and will not always get it right. If a belief in Christ brings you to follow him, is it not a good thing?
I will continue to read the scriptures and to seek truth through the Holy Spirit. I will try my best to be open to all truth, wherever it is found. I choose to have faith and not fear! Faith in a God that loves everyone, that wants the most for everyone. This Faith causes me to love God and worship him even more. This Faith drives me to want to obey God's commandments, to ask for forgiveness when I do wrong, to follow Christ's example, to go to church, to read the scriptures, to seek for purity and righteousness, to show charity to others, to seek truth through the promptings of the Holy Ghost and to live in such a way that I can receive further light and knowledge.
I am so very grateful that I know of a Plan of Salvation that is all about learning to walk by faith and offers the most to every person who has ever or will ever exist. I am so very grateful for my belief in a Loving God who receives his glory as all his children, every single person, come closer to him because he knows it is the way to his and their eternal happiness. God loves all of us, Jesus Christ lives and is our Savior. These things I know.
I've been following your comments at GLM and have read some of your posts here. I gave a short response on GLM a few days ago but would be happy to address some of your issues here in longer detail if you'd like. It might take a day or two.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, my name is David Bell. I didn't realize this would post as "unknown."
ReplyDeleteThank you! I have probably asked some more questions on GLM as well. Thank you for replying!!!
ReplyDeleteHave you learned anything good from lds beliefs?
ReplyDeleteConsider this first comment just introductory. We moved to a small community in Oregon awhile back just two blocks from the local LDS church. I walk every day, so I’ve had several encounters with LDS missionaries. I’ve had them in our home many times and have taken them out to dinner occasionally in the past two years, and am Facebook friends with two of them. I have a widowed Mormon neighbor two houses down who is a great lady. I help her with her yardwork and she’s brought over baked treats now and then. All this is to say I like Mormons and I’ve put many hours of research into finding out what you believe, and I try to get as much of my information as I can from the LDS website. Lately I’ve even been researching the history of Joseph Smith and the first 15 years of the church’s existence.
ReplyDeleteI had discussions with Mormon missionaries and other committed Mormons back in the ‘80s but that eventually fizzled out and there was really nothing for about 30 years until 2017 when we moved here. It’s caught my attention that there is more talk of grace these days as well as casual dismissal of a lot of what used to be taught by leaders in the church, from Brigham Young to Bruce McConkie. You asked what good things I have learned? Well, I have to say that I’ve been inspired by the dedication of Mormons, whether it be young missionaries who give two years of their lives (or 18 months for the ladies) to their mission, or—and especially—the people who left their homes and started all over several times in their lives because they were driven out of their communities in the first two decades of the church. I can’t imagine.
Sorry I have to log in as “unknown” on your blog. I have an old Blogger account but I can’t log in with it to make comments on your blog for some reason. Also, if I happen to use *asterisks* before and after a word or phrase, it’s to emphasize it. I don’t know of a way of using italics or bold font in the comments, and I hate using ALL CAPS because it comes across as shouting or angry.
Finally, I’m sure you’re not going to like some—maybe a lot—of the things I have to say. I mean you no ill will. In fact, the only reason I’m doing this is because I sense you are really hurting. But the only way I know to help you is with what I believe to be God’s truth. And please don’t stop reading until you’ve finished what I’ve written. This will go in three posts (counting this) unless I end up having to split it into more pieces; I don’t know what my posting limits are.
Regarding inerrancy, I’d be interested to know what aspect of inerrancy you disagree with. Your 8th Article of Faith says that the Bible is the word of God “as far as it is translated correctly.” I agree with that wholeheartedly. In other words, I believe the autographa (originals) were inerrant, and sometimes things can get lost in translation, but Hebrew and Greek are well-known ancient languages and people who do the translating are, with few exceptions, very competent. But what many Mormons typically mean by *translated* correctly today is *transmitted* (i.e., hand-copied) correctly, and they often rely on atheist liberal scholars’ statements that cast much doubt on that. But there are excellent conservative scholars who refute those statements, and even the well-known atheist liberal Bart Ehrman has admitted that “the essential Christian beliefs are not affected by textual variants in the manuscript tradition of the New Testament.”
ReplyDeleteBut maybe you mean that the autographa (originals) are errant because they were written by fallible humans. Do I believe a person will go to hell for believing that? No, not just simply for believing that. But here’s the thing: Suppose God lays out his plan of salvation by “breathing it out” (that’s what the Greek word for “inspired” means in 2 Tim 3:16: “God-breathed”) through his written word, and suppose there are parts of it we don’t like, so we say, “That must be a human error.” Then we have a problem. For example, if the Holy Spirit moved John to tell us we can have eternal life through believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, but we don’t like his explanation of what he means by that, and therefore convince ourselves he’s in error, that kinda messes things up. But I don’t know of any true evangelical who believes inerrancy is a test of salvation. (Fundamentalists are a different story.)
It seems to me that if you believe the 8th Article of Faith, you should believe that the Bible is at least *infallible* (i.e. that it won’t lead astray in any matter of faith and practice) if, as the Article states, it is the word of God. How could it truly be the word of God and lead you astray?
I believe in inerrancy, in part, because all evidence points to the fact that Jesus did. He never hesitated to appeal to the authority of Scripture. In fact, I’m told He did so 120 times (I haven’t actually counted). In Matt 22:32 He even appeals to the tense of the verb in Ex 3:6 to make his point. He definitely quoted it time after time as being absolutely authoritative. How, then, could it be authoritative if it is full of errors? And Peter said , “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” (2 Pet 1:20-21, KJV).
This issue of authority, I feel, is the core difference between evangelicals and Mormons: we find the Bible to be absolutely authoritative. Would you agree that that’s our core difference?
Regarding your concern about a God who would send people to hell, the issue again is authority. Is our authority the Bible, ourselves (e.g., our own judgement whether God really said it), or extra-biblical writings? For me it has to be the Bible, or at least my understanding of it, which seems to be pretty clear on the issue of eternal judgment.
ReplyDeleteFor me, there are really three issues here concerning our disagreement about hell: what the Bible says about (1) hell, (2) the nature of God, and (3) the nature of the fallen state of man.
1. What the Bible says about hell: If you do a search on a Bible website like Bible Gateway, it will show that the word “hell” occurs 23 times in the KJV New Testament, 15 of those in the Gospels and I think those are all words of Jesus. Then there are many places where Jesus and the apostles talk about hell but uses different words. Like John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not *perish* but have everlasting life.” Either we believe in him and have everlasting life or we don’t, in which case we perish. First Thess 1:8-9 speaks of God “taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power” I could list many others but you get the point, and I’m sure you are already aware of this.
2. What the Bible says about the nature of God: As you know, this is another big divide between Mormons and evangelicals (although it appears that some Mormon theologians are drifting toward evangelicalism just a bit). We do not believe that God was once a man, but rather that He is wholly other.
A) We believe that He is the *only* God who has ever existed. “So that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He, before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me” (Isa 43:10; see also Deut 4:35, 39; 6:4; 32:39; 1 Sam 2:2; 2 Sam 7:22; 1 Chron 17:20; Neh 9:6; Isa 44:6, 8; 45:5, 18, 21-22; 46:9; Jer 10:6; and more).
B) He is eternal: Psa 90:2 says “even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” There was probably no better way in the Hebrew mind to express that God existed eternally before time than these words. The New Testament talks about the activity of God “before the world began” in 2 Tim1:9 and Tit 1:2, where the Greek is literally rendered “before unending time.”
C) We believe He is self-existent and independent of all else (Ex 3:14; John 5:26; Job 41:11).
(continued)
ReplyDeleteD) There are many other attributes of God (including his love and justice), but these that I’ve listed point especially to his *holiness.* I would strongly encourage you to read the article at www.gotquestions.org/holy-God-holiness-of-God.html.
Regarding holiness, please note the first 5 verses of Isa 6:
“In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.”
Isaiah, who was a righteous man in human terms, was so awestruck by what he experienced of the holiness of God, that the first thing he did was recognize his depravity by crying out, “Woe is me! For I am undone.” This leads me to my third point.
3. What the Bible says about the nature of man:
Rom 3:10 “What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”
Rom 3:23 “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”
Jer 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”
Finally, look at the passage immediately before the verse that often gets thrown at Mormons by evangelicals (Eph 2:8-9 “for by grace you have been save through faith…”). In verse 1 Paul tells the Ephesian church that in their natural state they were *dead* in their trespasses and sins, and in v. 3, that they were by nature children of wrath. But then he tells them, “But God, *who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith He loved us* even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come He might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.
(continued)
ReplyDeleteThat’s where his holiness, man’s sin nature, and his love and mercy all come together. The conclusion at this point is that God is wholly other and utterly holy and cannot tolerate sin. But all mankind is sinful and therefore under judgment. In God’s love and mercy, He sent Jesus to die for us so that we might have eternal life through faith in Him.
So I just have one more thing to say for now, and this is very important. You are asking yourself, even in spite of all I’ve said, how I can I believe in a God who will pronounce such a severe judgement on so many people at the final judgement. And not just with the issue of hell. There’s another issue that is also hard to understand, and that’s the suffering of mankind. If God is so powerful, how could He allow so much suffering? A person can deny God’s eternal judgment by choosing not to believe it, but no one can deny all the human suffering in the world.
Katherine, here’s where faith comes in. I’ve been reading Job lately. Job thought God was being very unjust to him in his suffering. God’s answer to him, in the late Charles Ryrie’s summary words, was “If we know God, we do not need to know why He allows us to experience what we do. He is not only in control of the universe and all its facets but also of our lives; and He loves us. Though His ways are sometimes beyond our comprehension, we should not criticize Him for His dealings with us or with others. God is always in control of all things, even when He appears not to be.” Job accepted this in faith and repentance. Besides all the attributes of God I mentioned above, He is also loving, merciful, and fair. It doesn’t take faith to reject these truths; it takes faith to trust God that all of them are true at the same time, and that He is good even if we don’t understand.
Feel free to respond.
I am grateful that you talk about Faith. It sounds to me like you know a lot. I am a simple minded person but I understand why God allows bad things to happen and I understand the need to develop faith in life. That makes complete sense to me. I am not arguing that what you say is wrong. I am grateful for you spending so much time writing your beliefs. I have learned from them. What hurts me more than anything is that evangelical Christians are so quick to damn people to hell. I know that we need to believe in Christ to be saved. I know the path is narrow that leads to God, I know that the Bible talks about false Christs and prophets, but people just automatically assume that Mormons fit those descriptions and they tell us we are not saved. Of course that hurts because I love God with all my heart, might, mind and strength. I try to be Christlike, I feel God's love and I recognize his hand in my life every single day. You are right about the Bible. It is the word of God. I keep reading John 1 because everyone tells me to and it tells me that Jesus is God but in the same chapter it says the Son of God. I am not theologian, I am simple minded. The Son of God makes sense to me. And because he is the Son of God, he is God, he has his Devine nature and he has the power to save us. But people say I will perish in Hell if I believe this. If I am wrong then I am wrong, if you are wrong then you are wrong. I do not condemn you for that. If we are open to truth, God will continue to teach us truth through the Holy Spirit. But do you really believe God said you need a perfect understanding of such things to go to Heaven? Or does God accept even a tiny seed of faith that brings you to believe on him?
ReplyDeleteAs for inerrancy. I will think more about this. I suppose I just know that all men are not perfect and that it just makes sense that there could be some mistakes in the Bible, not in what God said/inspired, but in how the men wrote it down, how it was translated and definitely in how people interpret it. Perhaps there are no mistakes. I am just saying what makes sense to me. But I am open to truth and learning more truth. Are you? I know the Spirit testifies of truth.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I disagree with you that you are a simple-minded person. I think you are a deep thinker and you challenge others to think deeply, including me. Secondly, please note that I have never said that you not saved. I hope you will reread my comment to you from a few days ago at GLM. I know there’s a lot of discussion that goes on about “same Jesus,” “different Jesus.” How much can a person get wrong about the facts and still believe in the “same Jesus”? I don’t think anyone really knows, even if they think they do. All I know is that if we really seek Him, the Bible promises we’ll find Him. So when you ask if I really believe God said we need a perfect understanding of such things to go to heaven, my answer is certainly no.
ReplyDeleteRegarding inspiration and inerrancy, I basically agree with three of the four assertions you made if I understand you correctly. (1) That there are no mistakes in what God said/inspired. Agreed. (2) That there could be mistakes in how men wrote it down. This is where we disagree. I like to use the analogy of the incarnation that I was taught a long time ago. When God the Son took on a human nature, the man Jesus was the “product” (for lack of a better term) of the absolute perfect Holy Spirit and the fallible human Mary (The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Luke 1:35). The result was the “holy thing,” a perfect God-man. In the same way, when the perfect Holy Spirit moved holy but fallible men to write His words (1 Pet 1:20-21), the “product” was a perfect written word. That doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit didn’t use the writing styles and other personal traits of the men. Just as Jesus had Mary’s genes that distinguished Him from others, so the writings had the marks of their human authors, but the product was perfect. (3) That there were/are mistakes in how it was translated (and presumably, transcribed). I agree. But I think a strong case can be made that the differences from any mistakes do not effect matters of faith and practice. (4) That there are definitely mistakes in how people interpret it. Certainly.
You asked if I am open to truth and learning more truth. Yes, I really try to think about and wrestle with things. According to NT scholar Daniel Wallace (who, by the way, is a very competent evangelical counterpart to Bart Ehrman), that’s one of the things that differentiates fundamentalists and evangelicals. He said, “One of the hallmark differences between a fundamentalist and an evangelical is willingness to dialog over the issues. A fundamentalist condemns; an evangelical thinks.” I hope I fall into the latter. A few years ago I wrote a blog post on this called “Holiness and Love” at https://thoughtsonmywaytothecelestialcity.wordpress.com/2009/01/07/holiness-and-love/ in case you’re interested. I hope I practice what I preach. If not, let me know.
Thank you for your comments. I will think them over. It means a lot to me. I will continue to study, ponder and pray. I am wondering, Are you a Calvinist like John MacArthur or a different kind of Evangelical? This is just me being ignorant on the different kinds of Christians.
ReplyDeleteWhat kind of evangelical am I? Ha! I don’t know how to answer that. The evangelical world seems to be divided mostly between Calvinists (named after John Calvin) and Arminians (named after Jacobus Arminius). I am neither, but rather am some kind of “third other.” To be sure, all agree on most of what I would call the basic fundamentals on the faith. The main divide, as most people see it, is the belief in predestination on the Calvinist side and free will on the Arminian side. More fundamentally, as one theologian put it, when Calvinists read scripture “they see God as almighty, supremely glorious, absolutely sovereign, and the all-determining reality” whereas Arminians “see God as supremely good, loving, merciful compassionate and the benevolent Father of all creation, who desire the best for everyone” (Roger E. Olson, Arminian Theology, p72-73). If you were an evangelical, I’m sure you’d be the latter, right? ;) Both sides consider all those attributes to be true, but the difference lies, I suppose, in which are primary vs secondary when they seem to be in conflict. I believe the Bible contains paradoxes or mysteries to our finite minds in certain areas, and maybe God as done that so we can show grace to those who differ.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, that’s probably more than you wanted to know. Maybe my independence on this issue marks me as a good Baptist! I dislike the “Baptist” label because there are *all* types of Baptists (bible-thumping fundamentalist, evangelical, Calvinist, Arminian, etc.) but the big Baptist distinctive is the belief in the priesthood of all believers (1 Peter 2:5–9) wherein we are responsible to go directly to the Bible for our beliefs rather than any ecclesiastical authority.
Hey, thanks for that. Thanks for all your responses. And you are totally right, I am sure I would be an Arminian. I have a friend who is very much a Calvinist and appears to believe that God has chosen me to go to hell. There is nothing I can do about it except to live out my life knowing I am going to hell. Because God has made me to think the way I do. Apparently I have no choice in the matter. This has really hurt me. It is nice to know that some Christians think differently. I really really appreciate the insight you have given me.
ReplyDeleteI like to look for Gods tender mercies in my life. Whether it is God or not having a hand in these little acts of goodness in my life, I choose to attribute them to him. Not sure if that sounds Calvinist or Arminian or Mormon or just Christian but I like to look for the love and hand of God in my life. You are God's tender mercy to me today.
ReplyDeleteYes, that sounds "just Christian." Thank you for your kind words.
ReplyDeleteAnd BTW, my 11:09 AM post had the wrong reference; it was supposed to be 2 Pet 1:20-21, not 1 Pet...
Just one more thing. I’m curious—would you mind telling me what denomination your friend belongs to? I know, and have known, many people who strongly believe in Calvinism, and I can’t think of any who would actually tell someone that they’re not of the elect. I mean, how would they think they could know even an atheist is not elect until his life is over? That is, how do they know he won’t come to faith sometime before he dies? That’s not your typical Calvinist.
ReplyDeletePerhaps I just perceive that she has already put me in hell since I am LDS and she believes we will not be saved but I do imagine she still hopes I will turn away from my beliefs and then can be considered part of the elect. It is a grace church. I think they get some of their infuence from John MacAurther.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, if God has created me to think the way I do (being a member of the lds church), then would it not make sense from a Calvinist point of view that he has not chosen me to be saved?
ReplyDeleteIf he is playing around with me and my thought process just for his Glory then I really do not understand why. Or does it come down to the usual answer of Gods ways are not our ways.
ReplyDeleteAbout your question about making sense from a Calvinist point of view, I would say no because many atheists and people from other faiths have become believers. And especially from a Calvinist’s point of view, no mindset is any match for the regenerating power of God.
ReplyDeleteI’m afraid I don’t understand what you mean by God playing around with you, but that doesn’t sound like anything I believe God would do. Regarding the “usual answer” that God’s ways are not our ways, hmm, do I detect a little sarcasm here? If so, that’s OK, I understand. And I do believe that is the best answer when finite humans seem incapable of understanding our infinite God. Every night before going to bed I recite the 145th Psalm. (This may sound morbid, but someday, if and when I’m old, feeble, discouraged and alone, I hope to have something tucked away in my feeble old brain to remind me to continue to praise God.) The third verse says “Great is the Lord, and highly to be praised; and His greatness is unsearchable!” And how about Rom 11:33, which says, “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!” That sounds like a good one for us to end the night on, eh?
Thank you for those versus. I will ponder on them. Sorry about the sarcasm. I can be a little sarcastic at times and I need to repent of that. I suppose I just feel that God has a reason for everything he does and I do think those reasons can indeed make sense to us. But when I think about a God who created me to think a certain way, to believe in him with all my might mind and strength but it is not the correct way, I start to wonder why he would do that. I suppose I have always thought that the reason we are here on earth is to walk by faith. We can make our own choices but we do not have all the clear answers because we have to step out into the dark and have faith in God. Just curious, what church do you go to? Or maybe you do not. Either way, you sure do know a lot and I appreciate your knowledge.
ReplyDeleteI guess I should say step into the light, not the dark. But either way, when you take a step of faith, if the fruits that come from it are good and grown in goodness and lead you to Christ and do not fizzle away and die, is it not true? Alma 32.
ReplyDeleteThanks you for sharing those scriptures. Please know that I love God.
ReplyDeleteNo worries on the sarcasm. I only mentioned it as a friend to a friend with a wink and a smile.
ReplyDeleteWhat church do I go to? My wife, Christine, and I go to West Hills Community Church in west Salem, Oregon. We actually live in the small town of Jefferson. It’s a long story on how we ended up going to a church 35 minutes away when we philosophically have always been in favor of worshiping locally. Of course, 35 minutes is nothing for you Albertans! My cousin has lived in Alberta for most of his adult life and driving two hours to your destination seems pretty commonplace.
The church is actually a Baptist church but doesn’t have “Baptist” in the name. It’s a part of the North American Baptist Conference, a relatively small denomination that has it’s college and one of its two seminaries in Edmonton.
I’ll read the Alma passage when I have some time.
Thank you for everything my friend. Have a great day!
ReplyDeleteKatherine, I gave a short response on GLM but sometimes moderation is delayed, so I wanted to respond here as well. My post wasn't meant to be a rebuke, at least not any more to you than to myself because, as I inferred, I've been guilty of the very same thing. Anyway, I want you to know that I am very sorry to hear about your mother-in-law and am praying for her, you and your family (and so will my wife when she awakens). This has to be a very difficult time for you. God bless.
ReplyDeleteHey Katherine, this is the response I said on the GLM channel I’d send you. First, there’s something I feel I need to bring up. I noticed something you said that concerns me. About three weeks ago you said in a GLM comment, “I feel like giving up completely, even to the point where I want to give up on life.” And now I see you’ve changed your YouTube name to “almostgone why go on.” So here’s my question: Has this subject made you suicidal? I really need you to be honest about this. I don’t know you very well and I don’t know much about psychology and mental health, but I think I know enough to not ignore warning signs that might be staring me in the face.
ReplyDeleteI would like to help you and I do pray for you, but I don’t know how much help I can be besides trying to understand you and trying to explain what I believe and why I believe it. And as you are aware, we do have radically different beliefs, and it’s other people’s beliefs that seem to be stressing you.
So I need to know (1) if you are having suicidal thoughts and, even if not, (2) if you’re sure you really want to continue at this time. At the very least you seem to be suffering from depression. Maybe you should take a break from the subject and then we can pick it up again at another time?
If (and when) we do continue our conversation, I’m thinking I’d rather do it someplace other than the GLM channel. The main reason is that I don’t feel it’s appropriate for two people to have lengthy correspondence on someone’s YouTube channel, and it could get pretty long, as we already started it here, and just the start was lengthy. Also, commenting on GLM is a pain because I always have to check back to see if there’s been a response (no notifications). And if you didn’t want to continue on this blog, maybe we could come up with another idea. But first we need to decide if it’s wise to continue at this time.
Anyway, let me know your thoughts.
i have been bullied on another Christian youtube channel. One man told me to go to Hell and said I should not be a mom. His comments scared me to the point where I wanted to change my name and I did so rashly and in a not so great way.
ReplyDeleteA dear friend of mine says I am going to Hell. A very influencial pastor (John MacArthur) says I am going to Hell.
GLM are smart educated men who tell me I am going to Hell unless I change my beliefs. I have reflected on this constantly, it consumes me. I have shed many tears and yes, I have thought about what is the point of living if God will send most everyone to Hell where they can not feel any of his love. These thoughts make me not want to go on in life. But I will keep going on, I just hope to not go on on youtube videos even though I keep coming back because I want to make sense of the beliefs of these good but extremely judgemental people. This is not a joke, these people actually believe good people (the good sincere Mormon, Jew, Catholic, Muslim, Hindu, Agnostic, etc) who are sincerely trying to live good lives and change and try to do better when they do wrong, Are Going To Hell where they can not even feel a portion of God's love even though all people feel it in this life whether they know it or not. How does one even begin to make sense of this let alone find peace in it. All I have found is hopelessness and despair in thinking of such a God as this. I believe in the LDS plan of Salvation with all my heart because it makes sense. I wrote my ideas on GLM about Heaven and Hell. I truly believe we will all go where we are most comfortable based on how we live our lives but also, the sincere desires of our hearts. Are actions and knowledge will not be perfect in this life but if we just have a tiny seed of faith in Christ, the atonement will work in some way for everyone who even just tries to believe. And there are just as many sincere Mormons who want to follow Christ as there are Christians who want to follow Christ. Christ is our judge, not the Bible, not GLM. And I truly believe he will be as merciful as he is just.
Do GLM, John MacArthur, etc, not realize that they are damning real live people, many of which are living good, not perfect, but good Christlike lives. These people have feelings, they love others, they try to do their best, they repent when they do wrong, and they are trying to walk by, learn and grow in faith which is something everyone is doing - living by faith as no one has all the answers. I would never damn someone to hell no matter how the Bible talks about how narrow the gate is and that the lord will say " I did not know you"...(you know what scriptures I am referring too). It is a serious thing to judge others based on how we interpret some scriptures that could refer to many different people. It is not our job to judge but to love. I am grateful that I have been taught to love others and to know that All mankind are children of God. I am no better than anyone else and if I judge someone else, I have just as much chance of going to "Hell" as they do as the second great commandment is to Love your neighbor and we are taught in the Bible not to judge. I feel that GLM needs to take a different approach. They really need to just teach what they know to be true and stop judging others. I would full heartedly respect them if they did that.
ReplyDeleteThe guy who told you to go to hell is hopefully not any kind of Bible-believing Christian. I don’t recall ever hearing an evangelical speak like that. If he professes to believe the Bible, someone needs to rebuke him sharply. That's horrible.
ReplyDeleteWhatever you do, please don’t give up on life. You are a precious soul and your family needs you.
Thank you. I will hold on. I know that when I feel like giving up, God does help me see the good in life. If you have time, perhaps someday you might explain why you feel like the Bible must be interpreted to say that most all people will go to Hell where they will not feel any of God's love. Is God really like that? Because that is a different definition of Love then I know. Even if the LDS people were wrong (which I do Not believe so), many of them are sincere seekers of truth and love God with all their heart. They just have a different perspective on the Bible, on how to find truth and on the meaning of life. They think with a wholistic view that includes All people in God's plan of salvation and that fits All truth together. They are sincere in accepting the Atonement of Christ and their Faith in Christ leads to good works. I would appreciate your view on things once again. Thank you for your friendship.
ReplyDeleteOK, I’m happy to do that, but I need to give some thought as to how to best get my thoughts down in an orderly fashion, and it will take me some time. Like you, I take this seriously and want to be careful how I proceed. It’s not an easy subject.
ReplyDeleteYou might review what I said in this thread on January 16, and specifically, the post that starts with “Regarding your concern about a God who would send people to hell” and the next two posts below it that are a continuation. It’ll refresh your mind as to what I’ve already said (and it refreshed mine, too) and maybe you can let me know specifically what you feel is wrong with the way I’ve interpreted the verses I mentioned. I’m thinking my first step is probably to explain to you the principles we evangelicals use to interpret scripture, especially since you’re asking why I feel the Bible must be interpreted the way I do.
I just realized I used an unfortunate expression yesterday when I said “I’d be happy to do that.” I hope you understand that I meant I was “very willing” to do what you asked. I find nothing “happy” about the subject of hell.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of that, my wife and I are reading a book called Heaven by Randy Alcorn, an evangelical pastor. I read a few pages aloud in bed each night. Near the beginning he has a short section on hell, the antithesis of Heaven. We came upon a couple of statements a few nights ago that made me think of you. Alcorn writes, “If I had a choice, that is if Scripture were not so clear and conclusive, I would certainly not believe in Hell. Trust me when I say I do not *want* to believe in it. But if I make what I want—or what others want—the basis for my beliefs, then I am a follower of myself and my culture and not a follower of Christ.” He later quotes C. S. Lewis: “There is no doctrine which I would more willingly remove from Christianity than this, if it lay in my power. But it has the full support of Scripture and, specifically, of our Lord’s own words.”
These are my sentiments exactly. I find nothing “happy” about it.
Ok. Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate them.
ReplyDeleteI did re read the comment that you wrote me on January 16th. Thank you for that. I am starting to understand why Christians believe the way they do about Hell. But please hear me out. No one is 100% sure of anything in life. We may say we are, but we really are not. We were not there when the Bible was written, I was not there when Joseph Smith saw the first vision, etc. We all choose what we believe and we all choose to have faith in those beliefs. That is just a fact! I have chosen my beliefs and I believe in them with a great conviction. Christians choose to see the Bible as the only word of God and the infallible word of God. I see that Christians read the Bible and see Heaven and Hell. That is very clear. Then they start picking apart who will go to Heaven and who will go to Hell. That is a lot more unclear. If one is to focus on the doing Good according to the Bible, one can choose to focus on loving others and not judging others. After all, the first great commandment is to love God and the second is the love your neighbor. I believe that part of that love, is giving that person the benefit of the doubt.
ReplyDeleteI sympathize with you as I think I understand your thinking and your feelings on this, even if I don’t agree. I know you were frustrated that GLM really didn’t engage with you on this, and those who did were sometimes antagonistic. So I’ll continue to try to respond until you ask me to buzz off.
ReplyDeleteRegarding not being able to be 100% sure about anything, the following verses seem to indicate otherwise: “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may *know* that you have eternal life” (1 John 5:13); “You will *know the truth*, and the *truth* will make you free” (John 8:32); “who [God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the *knowledge of the truth* (1 Timothy 2:4); “I *know* whom I have believed, and I am *convinced* that He is able to protect what I have entrusted to Him until that day” (2 Timothy 1:12).
Also, Thomas didn’t believe in Christ’s resurrection until he actually saw him, and then he was 100% sure. Jesus said, “Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed” (John 20:29), which seems to imply that we can be 100% sure through faith. “Faith is the *assurance* of things hoped for, the *conviction* of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1).
Regarding your statement that it is very clear that “Christians read the Bible and see Heaven and Hell” but is “a lot more unclear” when they start picking apart who will go to Heaven and who will go to Hell, I’d like to try to look at this in a context outside of the evangelical/LDS tension you’ve been experiencing because I know a lot of your contention is with GLM and others who focus on the LDS. You have mentioned others like Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims. Can we look at Muslims for a minute? Again, to focus on the Bible, John 3:16 lays out two options: believe in God’s Only Begotten Son for everlasting life, or perish. In 20:31 he explains that eternal life is through believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. He gives examples of what believing in Christ looks like: in chapter 9 the healed blind man worships him; in chapter 20 Thomas proclaims “My Lord and my God.” To the Samaritan woman it was accepting His gift of eternal life. And in Romans chapter 10, after proclaiming his deep desire for Israel to be saved, Paul said one can’t be saved without believing that God raised Christ from the dead.”
ReplyDeleteSo how does Islam stack up? It fails on all counts as far as I can tell. They don’t believe that Jesus was raised from the dead. They even reject that he was crucified. They don’t accept his gift of eternal life. They think he was a prophet, not the Son of God, much less God Incarnate. They don’t worship him. What part of the Gospel do they accept other than the fact that Jesus was a man who lived? If we take the Bible at its word, how do we conclude that there is any other option than that they fall into the category of those “who *obey not* the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power” (Thess 1:8-9)? If we believe this because of what the Bible makes clear, how is it that we are judging? It is God who judges, and His judgments have been revealed in the Bible. If we are to be people of the Bible, we must proclaim all of it, even the unpleasant truths. I’m not at all suggesting that we should go around and make that our primary message. The message is to be the gospel of Jesus Christ. But the gospel includes the fact that that he came to save sinners, and what did he come to save them from? A life of sin and, ultimately, from eternal separation from God.
And if I am “judging” someone because I believe the Bible teaches that those who don’t believe the gospel are lost, it’s not because I think I’m a better person. In fact, I have found over the years that the closer I get to God, the more I realize what a sinner I am. The more I see His holiness, the more I see my own wretchedness.
Finally, about your comment about loving rather than judging others: If judging others means assessing their spiritual condition, maybe it’s not a binary choice. Maybe we can do both. If I might share part of my own story, after working at a secular university for 26 years God gave me the opportunity to work for a non-profit medical mission organization, CURE International, for 13 years. It has childrens’ hospitals in developing countries (and we had a women’s/maternity hospital in Afghanistan at the time). During that time I purchased millions of dollars’ worth of medical equipment and supplies and shipped them to the hospitals. Thousands of physical lives have been transformed through medical procedures, and thousands of souls have been liberated from the clutches of hell through the spiritual ministries in the hospitals. That’s not a pat on my back, it was just a wonderful opportunity to be a *very* small part of God’s work there. I didn’t volunteer, I was paid. Funds came from the donations of others who had love for these kids and their families. And now that I’m retired, besides giving to our own church, we give to other mission organizations because we love to be a part of God’s redeeming work in the world of lost souls by meeting physical and spiritual needs. Hopefully that’s an example of loving others *and* assessing their spiritual condition.
ReplyDeleteDoes any of this make sense? If I’ve come across as confrontational, I’m sorry; that’s not my intent. I’m just trying to help you see things from our perspective, because you said you were trying to make sense of our beliefs. I’m not trying to convince you to agree with me. That’s not my job. I’m just trying to help you the best I can within the bounds of what I believe.
I see where you are coming from. I am grateful for you spending the time trying to answer my questions. I suppose one can choose what they believe. How do you get any peace when you know that most of mankind is destined for Hell? Doesn't that terrify you to know that God is like that? Or do you think people might still be able to feel a portion of the love of God in hell just like they can feel it in this life? Some christians talk about degrees of Hell.
ReplyDeleteI agree with how you talk about faith! Faith is the assurance of things hope for. I think most of strong LDS have a powerful hope in a God that can be comprehended and that loves All of his creations and will do the most that he can for them. We do not know all things but we connect the dots in the Bible to frame a loving and perfectly Just and Merciful God. I truly believe, like I wrote in a GLM comment about my ideas on Heaven and Hell, that our idea of Heaven and the Christian idea of Hell might converge. We focus on the love and Mercy while perhaps Christians focus more on the Justice. I continue to focus on the Love of God for all human beings!! if one loses that focus, how does one NOT let predjudice set in with the thoughts of "I am the elect and you are not." It would be hard to not let those thoughts creep in. Agreed?
ReplyDeleteI’ll answer the last question first, for now, since it’s the easiest. Is it hard not to be prejudiced against those who aren’t elect? The short answer is a simple no. At least not for the reason that they aren’t elect.
ReplyDeleteTo give you the longer answer, let me first say something about election. Remember when I suggested that if you were an evangelical, you’d probably by an Arminian rather than a Calvinist, and you agreed? Well, the Arminian’s view of election is basically that God’s election is based on his foreknowledge of who will believe, so in effect he chooses those who choose him. Therefore, it comes down to man’s free will, which I think would be appealing to you, correct? Anyway, even though I’m not a Calvinist, I tend to agree with them that election is based on God’s sovereign choice. But since it is God’s sovereign choice, and he hasn’t revealed *why* he chooses whom he does, I have absolutely nothing to boast about. I suppose I would be more inclined to be smug if I were an Arminian and believed there was something in me (my own free choice) that made me one of the elect. But I truly do not believe there is anything good in me that warrants God’s grace. I am a sinner like the rest of humankind. So I can’t be prejudiced against the non-elect, whoever they are—and that’s another point: it’s impossible to know who they are while they’re alive because some of the elect don’t come to faith until later in life. But honestly, I rarely think in terms of the elect and non-elect. The Bible does talk about it to some degree but it also says that *whosoever* believes will be saved. There’s a tension between the two truths of God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility that I don’t think we’ll resolve in this side of heaven, and I expect there to be much about our infinite God I’ll never comprehend even in eternity.
I’m not saying, though, that I never have thoughts of prejudice or superiority. I often do, like toward those who have lifestyles and worldviews I disapprove of. And that is wrong. I need to adapt the words of John Bradford in those cases and say, “There but for the grace of God goes David Bell.”
How is your mother-in-law doing?
ReplyDeleteShe is doing so much better. We almost lost her but we experienced a miracle!
ReplyDeleteI suppose I want to fight this thought of election in my mind because I know many life long members of my church who are now dead but were great people in this life. Not perfect, but good people all around, who trusted in the Lord, but did not understand the Bible in the same way you did. I am trying to reason your beliefs in my mind and that is why I am starting to think Hell must not be as bad as people think it is. Maybe there are degrees of Hell and maybe people can still feel the effects of a portion of Gods love in those degrees. After all, there would need to be a comparison between the degrees. Some would need to be worse than the others and therefore, some would be better, better meaning some of God's love would be present. Just saying what is on my mind. Thoughts?
ReplyDeleteDo you think it is wrong or dangerous to reason through thoughts and to try to fit the pieces of the puzzle (pieces meaning both Scripture and logic) together to get a bigger picture of life, one that actually makes sense? Just wondering
ReplyDeleteI’m happy to hear she’s doing so much better!
ReplyDeleteRegarding whether I think it’s wrong or dangerous to try to fit pieces of the puzzle together, my thinking is that it is absolutely not wrong even though it could indeed be dangerous. It’s not wrong because not only did God give us His revelation, he also gave us minds to think. But it can indeed be dangerous, in my opinion, because I can easily come up with the wrong conclusion. I need to be careful not to think too highly of my own cognitive abilities. Whatever the issue is that I’m struggling with, there have been many pious people with greater minds than mine who have gone before me over the centuries who have wrestled with the same issue, so it would seem presumptuous of me to think I could come up with something new (kinda like believing in Santa Claus—can’t see beyond my little world). I’m embarrassed to say that it took me a long time to figure that one out (and I was probably a little late in coming to grips with Santa Claus as well!). Another thing that can make it dangerous is not really knowing all that Scripture says about something. I may think I’ve got an answer and then I eventually come upon another Scripture passage—whoops. But I do think it is good to contemplate on the things of God. I just need to be realistic that there are some things I’ll never figure out. Jesus said if we seek, we’ll find. In some cases, what we may find is peace rather than the specific answer we were looking for.
There’s a good example of what you’re talking about that comes to mind that I hope doesn’t muddy the waters because I know you don’t agree with me on this issue, but the history of the doctrine of the Trinity is a good case in point, even if you believe it is a good case in point of it being dangerous. Anti-trinitarians like yourself are correct in pointing out that the very early church didn’t have the doctrine articulated (essentially, that God is one being who exists in three eternal persons). But they were monotheistic, and at the same time they worshipped Christ as God. Secular philosophers (and Jews, I’m sure) accused them of being polytheistic, which they denied. But how were they to explain—to critics as well as to themselves—that they were monotheistic and believed that Christ was God? And then add the Holy Spirit into the mix. To use your words, they had trouble fitting the pieces of the puzzle together. Some thought they had it figured out by thinking that God showed himself in different forms at different times (Modalism), but that had scriptural problems and was eventual rejected by most. Tertullian actually came up with the basic Trinitarian expression around 200 AD but for various reasons it was quite a bit later that church as a whole settled the issue.
Anyway, I think it is good to think on these things. It’s also good to try to find out how others have dealt with the same issue and evaluate their thinking as part of the process. Oh, and I don’t think we should let the “puzzles” consume us to the point where we aren’t meditating on the things we *do* understand. So keep thinking. I know you’re a thinker. :-)
Note: I know you have some comments that I haven’t responded to yet, but I plan to when I have time. I tend to go for low-hanging fruit.
ok. Thanks. I hope you enjoyed your Sunday!
ReplyDeleteRegarding degrees of Hell, there seems to be something to that, but even so, Hell is separation from God (or, technically speaking, it is separation from the *manifestation* of His presence since God is omnipresent). So even the best level of Hell would be horrible.
ReplyDeleteYou asked if I get any peace knowing that most of mankind is destined to Hell, and if I’m not terrified to know God is like that. Fear and peace are a little complicated in my mind because there are different objects of fear (like God or Hell or people) and different kinds of peace, but I’ll do my best to briefly explain what I think. First, all mankind is right to fear God in the very basic sense that He is absolutely holy and just. As I mentioned before, for example, Isaiah (who was a righteous man in human terms) was so awestruck by what he experienced of the holiness of God, that he immediately recognized his depravity by crying out, “Woe is me! For I am undone.” It’s easy to lose sight of this when we focus on human standards. At the same time, though, concerning believers today, “having been justified by faith, we have *peace* with God through our Lord Jesus Christ…and we exult in the hope of the glory of God” (Rom 5:1-2) and “Much more, then, having been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him (v. 9).” This *peace* is referring to our position in Christ, because as sinners we were once considered enemies of God (v. 10a) but are now reconciled (v. 10b); however, this peace with God should also lead to our peace of heart and mind.
Believers have peace but should still approach God in great reverence and awe. And as one theologian, Dr. Unger, once put it, “Fear and love must coexist in us in order that either passion may be healthy, and that we may please the rightly serve God.”
But back to the topic all the people going to Hell, my answer is the same as before. In faith I have to trust that God is all He claims to be: righteous, just, holy, compassionate, kind, longsuffering, sovereign, and much more, and He knows what He is doing. I’m a mere mortal. If I were to cry foul, His answer to me would be, “Who are you, O man, who answers back to God?” (Rom 9:20).
If I might expand a little on what I said on March 5 about God’s judgment and Muslims in light of 1 Thess 1:8-9), and saying that it is God’s judgment not mine, I should have addressed those verses commonly used against judging others.
ReplyDeleteMatt. 7:1-3, the most famous verses about judging, says, “Judge not, that ye be not judged” but it’s talking about hypocritical judgment because it goes on to say, “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?” (v. 3, NASB). We find basically the same thing in Romans 2:1-3.
Romans 14 and Colossians 2:16 ff are about judging fellow Christians in areas of Christian liberty, like what we eat and drink and what special days we observe.
But proper judging isn’t prohibited. John 7:24 says, “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
So it seems to me if we make assessments based on God’s judgment, as plainly described in Scripture, if that’s considered judging at all on our part, it is at least righteous judgment.
Thank you for this. I see where you are coming from with righteous judgement. The thing I have a hard time with, with GLM is that they only seem to judge mormons negatively in focusing on all the "bad" from the religion and this most likely will influence people to think badly of us individually. I truly feel like you will find true believers and followers of Jesus in the LDS faith just like you will find them in other Christian faiths. There are many LDS as well as other Christians who sincerely believe in a Christ that will save them from their sins and from Hell. Agreed? They read of and try to follow Christs example as stated in the Bible. Or does this start us back at the beginning again of our discussion. If I truly believe this and it is not true, is it because God does not want to save me? Does one have to believe a certain way and a certain amount? I guess this is where we might start to go around in circles.
ReplyDeleteI suppose no one knows the answers to these questions. I just hope we all just give others the benefit of the doubt as no one but God knows the whole heart, mind, and true intentions of another.
ReplyDeleteHmm, I hope we don’t start to go around in circles. I actually had to look up the definition of that phrase, and Cambridge says it means “to seem very busy without achieving anything.” While I don’t expect us to come to fundamental agreement in our doctrine, I think it is an achievement to have friendly conversation in order to understand each other.
ReplyDeleteBut I think I know what you meant, as your last two comments bring me to “circle back” (I looked that one up too) to something I said to you near the beginning on GLM. I keep going back to the Gospel of John. Even though it was written for *unbelievers* about how to have eternal life, it’s my favorite book in the Bible, probably because I struggled for years with assurance of my own salvation in terms of what was required, especially in the days of my youth.
So here’s my own conviction: The Gospel of John is a story that tells us who Jesus is, what the gift is that he offers us, and how we can receive it. In the simplest of terms, if we believe the story of John’s Gospel, accept Jesus’ offer of the free gift of eternal life simply through faith, and can proclaim in our hearts, with Thomas, “My Lord and my God,” we have eternal life.
Thoughts?
I agree with this. My thoughts and beliefs often take me so much deeper and further but when I go back to the fundamentals of my beliefs, I proclaim with my heart as Thomas did saying "my Lord and my God" I am forever grateful for my Savior and I know it is through him that I am saved.
ReplyDeleteJust doing a little more thinking on the topic of Hell. If Hell is a separation from God, are we living in a Hell at this moment? Or do you think God is present in everyone's life all the time even if they do not recognize it? Just some thoughts.
ReplyDeleteRegarding God’s presence, it seems to me that there are two aspects of His presence that need to be distinguished. The first is His absolute omnipresence (and I’m not sure what you think about this). I believe that God is spirit and transcends space and is therefore omnipresent. “Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?” (Jer. 23:24); “Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?” (Psa 139:7). So in His omnipresence He is even present in Hell. But the other aspect of his presence is His manifested presence—where we *experience* His presence.
ReplyDeleteIn this world we definitely experience His presence. Everything good is a manifestation of His presence. Just a few verses:
“Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights…” (James 1:17).
“The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands” Psalm 19:1.
“For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse” Romans 1:20).
“…for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous” (Matthew 7:45).
It is hell where people will not experience His presence: “…away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power” (1 Thess 1:9). And I agree with you that that’s terribly grim.
So now I have a question for you. What about me? Do you believe someone like me has eternal life? I know our terminology is different, but from what I can tell from LDS literature, eternal life is the same as exultation, which includes living forever in the presence of God / Heavenly Father. I see eternal life as living forever in the presence of God as well, so in that sense we agree on terminology as far as what eternal life includes at least in that sense. I believe all those things I mentioned about the Gospel of John. I have accepted the free gift of eternal life through faith in Jesus. But do you believe it is possible for me to spend eternity with God even though I haven’t been baptized into the LDS church, haven’t had the laying on of hands, haven’t done any of the things you do in the temple (sorry for being vague about the temple but I don’t really know a lot about that), etc.?
ReplyDeleteThat is a very good question and one that I have reflected on a lot lately because I am very much a believer in the love of God for ALL people. Thank you for asking!
ReplyDeleteI have been studying more on the LDS beliefs of the 3 kingdoms of Glory as well as have been studying on how Christians such as yourself see Heaven. Correct me if I am wrong, but you said God is a Spirit so living with God would actually be living with Jesus in Heaven since Jesus is part of the Trinity. You will feel the influence of God but he is omnipresent so you will really only come face to face with Jesus. Correct?
The LDS believe that God has a spirit but also his own body (apart from the body of Jesus). The people who live with God (in his physical form) will learn from him and be able to apply the knowledge that they learn to be able to become more like him because they desire too and because that is what God wants most of all - his children to become like him. That is what I want for my children - to grow up and become like me, well actually I want them to become better than me. But many people may not desire to become like God. After all, it takes learning and growing and becoming. Sanctification can be hard as we realize in this life when we repent and try to do better. It is not always easy to repent and change for the better! I also wonder if one might not feel comfortable living in God's presence if that person is not like God or becoming like God. Just a thought.
The people who do not live in the presence of God will still feel the influence of God and live in a Heavenly State. Jesus will be there in the Terrestrial Kingdom (I think he can come and go) and the people there will worship him and will talk with him and feel of his love. Who knows, maybe there will be learning and growth there too. I feel like this is the way you see Heaven. You see yourself living with Jesus, in perfect peace and harmony forever. Am I correct? How else do you see Heaven? I would love to hear your thoughts on Heaven! After all, we will not know exactly what Heaven is like until we get there. What I believe makes sense to me and what you believe may make sense to you.
The Telestial kingdom is for those who do not even care to repent and become more like God. They will still feel the effects of God's love and the Holey Spirit in their existence but they are stuck in their ways and habits and do not desire to change. I feel like it is somewhat like this earth at this time. We can all feel of God's love but so many do not know him or even care too and we do not have the physical presence of Jesus with us now. But God still loves these people very much and will do all he can for his children even if they have no desire to keep learning and growing.
The LDS are so incredibly optimistic in how we see a loving Heavenly Father. We know that this life is the time to prepare to meet God but we also believe that somehow and to some extent, all hope is NOT lost after this life. We show our faith in this belief by doing tons of Family History, trying to connect the generations as far back as we can. We also go to the Temple and do baptisms and make covenants for those who are dead because we believe that people can still learn, grow and change to some extent when they are spirits on the other side although it may be harder to do.
You may find this all very strange but I believe this is how we, as LDS, express our hope and faith in a loving Heavenly Father. We want to do all that we can for ALL people on both sides of the veil. It is a beautiful loving belief that works to connect all the Human race, (although some people may have opposing feelings about it). The truth is, all people are walking by faith in this life no matter what they believe in. The main thing is to do good because that is what Jesus did and he is our perfect example on how to live this life. I think Heavenly Father will recognize the desires of one's heart in the circumstances that that person lived. Thoughts?
Oh, I forgot one (probably many actually) important details. We really believe the covenant of baptism and the covenants we make in our Temple are learning to become like Heavenly Father, not earning Heaven. The Temple is like a spiritual university where one can learn more about God's plan for his children and can receive deeper spiritual insight from the Holy Ghost. Perhaps you may look at this a bewildering and that is ok. The one thing I know for sure, is that God loves all his creations and that is why I believe the way I do. Oh, have you ever heard of familysearch.org. It is free and is a great way to learn more about your family tree if you desire too. It is amazing how all of the human race is connected.
ReplyDeleteOne last thought to tie things together - I really think one is on the right track if that person is trying to follow the Savior and is open to learning truth through the teachings of the Spirit.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your thoughts. You certainly gave me a lot to think about and respond to. It’ll take me awhile to chew, digest, and respond. By the way, are you OK continuing the way we have been on this blog post? Is there a limit on the length of the string of comments on a given blog post? I think this will make 62 comments.
ReplyDeleteYes, late last year I became somewhat familiar with familysearch.org. We have an LDS widow neighbor/friend who was interested in showing me the website. I spent an evening playing with it and discovered that one of my ancestors was Alfred the Great, “King of Wessex and King of All Anglo Saxons” around ninth century. So I’ll have you know that you are communicating with someone with royalty in his blood! Like maybe a drop. I was able to follow the line all the way back to the second century BC, which surprised me. But who knows how accurate it is, right?
You bet we can continue here. I don't think there is a limit. It is fascinating how we far we can trace our roots back. Who knows, maybe we are distant cousins.
ReplyDeleteYou can always write me at katherine@watters.ca if you like. I know that people may think what I believe is crazy because it is not explained completely in the Bible except little bits here and there. I honestly feel that God does have so much more to teach us and it is through the Spirit that we learn truth if we have a honest desire to know and learn. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. But I do not fear being a seeker of truth. I am trying to put the pieces together to see the Big picture of the purpose of life. I am learning line upon line, precept upon precept (which is a saying in the LDS church) in piecing together knowledge that can be found in and out of the Bible through the help of the Spirit. And the picture is getting clearer to me. My intent is not to get glory for myself. I am learning to love my God and my fellow men even better by reflecting on these things as I continue to walk by faith in this life.
ReplyDeleteYou covered a lot so I’ll start out with your question of how I see Heaven. You said in your last comment that people may think you’re crazy for believing what you do; well, you’re going to think what I’m about to say in this posted comment is crazy. So to start, I believe there is one Heaven for all true believers, although there will be some sort of ranking based rewards according to our works.
ReplyDelete(Note on being judged by works: Yes, I believe all will be judged on works. Unbelievers will be judged for their sins against an infinite God at the Great White Throne Judgment [Revelation 20:11-15] and the sentence will be horrible. Believers, on the other hand, will escape *that* judgment because Christ’s punishment has already been applied to their account through faith. But they will be judged at the Bema Seat of Christ [2 Cor. 5:10; 1 Cor. 3:12-15] according to their works for rewards, or lack thereof, in Heaven).
I believe in Heaven we’ll see the full glory of God. The Bible says we will see God, even His face, (Rev 22:4), which is remarkable because John 1:18 says that no one has seen God at any time. I suppose part of the reason no one has seen Him is that God is spirit (John 4:24 [doesn’t say God HAS a spirit but He IS spirit]) and therefore is invisible (1 Timothy 1:17) but I think the primary reason no one has seen God is that no mortal is capable of seeing His full glory.
It is true that Exodus 33:11 says that the LORD used to speak with Moses “face to face,” but that has to be a figure of speech about being in His revealed presence and how they communicated (in English we use “face to face” figuratively as well) because just 9 verses later God says, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!” This was God’s response to Moses’s request to see God’s glory (v.18). So to see God’s face is to see His full glory, and God said no. God sheltered Moses as He passed by and Moses only saw His “back,” not His full glory. Even at that, Moses’s face was radiant for days and he covered it with a veil.
First Timothy 6:16 says that God “lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.” Right now, “without holiness no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14) and none of us will have that holiness until heaven. So in Rev. 22 when it says we will see God’s face, I believe it means we’ll see His full glory. We’ll be able to do that because we will have been delivered from sin and all of sin’s effects on our being. As Psalm 138:6 says, “Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain.”
(continued…) In the Old Testament, God “dwelt” (His presence was manifested) in the Holy of Holies in the temple, although His full glory was never revealed there (maybe the closest was when He appeared to Isaiah in Isa 6). I’ve read that the Holy of Holies was a 30 foot cube. When the New Jerusalem comes down to the renewed earth (which I believe is where Heaven will be) it will be a 1400 mile cube with no temple, for God and His glory will fill its entirety (see Rev. 21:10-26).
ReplyDeleteThere is certainly a lot about Heaven that I don’t understand. Like, will we see Jesus in His deity or His humanity, or somehow both? Certainly early in Revelation John saw Him in his humanity, and even then His face shown like the sun! (1:16). I don’t know how millions can experience His human form whereas, as God, His glory and presence certainly be experienced constantly by all. But much will remain a mystery until that Day.
Well, enough for now. That’s probably more than you asked for.
I have a question about something you said in one of your last posts. I hope you don’t take this as too confrontive. I’ve told LDS missionaries I’ve met to not be afraid to say they don’t have an answer to my question, and to not be afraid to ask me tough questions that I might not have answers for, in which case I’ll say I don’t have the answer. In fact, Katherine, you’ve heard me say more than once that some things remain a mystery to me, right? I’m not suggesting you don’t have an answer for this or future questions, but I just would like us to be able to ask each other tough or uncomfortable questions and still maintain a healthy conversation. Agreed? So here’s this question:
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned that the covenants you make are *learning* to become like God, not *earning* Heaven. And I appreciate the explanation, by the way. But even at that, they are still requirements for eternal life (which equals LDS exultation), right? If so, how or why did John not mention those specific requirements in his Gospel, especially since the purpose of writing it was to show people how to receive eternal life? Granted, some suggest that John 3:5 is speaking of baptism and therefore adds that to faith, which we could discuss sometime, but what about all the temple covenants that John never mentioned? That, to me, seems to be a huge omission. Am I missing something?
That is a great question and one that I will ponder on for a while. I can totally see where you are coming from. Lately I feel like my mind has been opened to be able to to try to see where so many come from - Christians, Athiets, Agnostics, Mormons, etc. I am grateful that you are starting to help me see where Christians are coming from because John MacAurther and GLM really through me for a loop! And I am so grateful that you do not appear to Judge me for my beliefs because if there is one thing I know for sure, it is that God loves you as much as he loves me.
ReplyDeleteI was just having a conversation about this with my husband at Supper time. To me, John 3:5 does talk about Baptism as a requirement. Then again, the LDS take that a step further and say one needs to been baptized with correct authority and I believe that John the Baptist had that authority. Who has the authority to Baptize in other churches? Just curious.
ReplyDeleteI really feel though, that if one follows the gospel as explained in John and has faith and acts on that faith to go in the direction of Christ, that person is headed in the right direction. I also feel like it is the Spirit that testifies to the spirits of man of spiritual truth. If one is open to learning spiritual truth, then he or she will continue along that path to learning and growing spiritually - I think you may call it Sanctification but we take it a step further as we allow ourselves to think about what eternal growth could mean, especially if we are children of God and made in his image. I do not feel that spiritual truth is confined to the teachings of the Bible. Nor do I believe that my beliefs contradict the Bible - rather they clarify and complete more of the bigger picture.
So, where am I going with this. I do not think that Temple ordinances are required by a person in this life to continue on the path to exaltation. I mean, how can LDS make that claim? We only have 15 million or so members. That would not be fair for us to say that, especially when we believe in such a loving God and we know we are NO better than anyone else. Perhaps covenant making is required for further spiritual growth and that is why LDS do work for the dead in the Temple. Maybe these were done in New Testament times but were not written down or were lost (1 Corinthians 15.29 does talk about baptisms for the dead) or maybe God did not think the world was ready for these covenants as a whole and so they did not continue during that time and were not written down. I really do not know.
But I feel like it is the desire to continue to learn spiritual truth and act on that truth that will lead people in the direction of exaltation throughout this life and the next. If one hardens his or her heart so much that they are not willing to learn and act through repentance and making covenants with God, even if the Spirit testifies of the need to do so, they are really condemning themselves.
But I can see the other side to this. I need to be open in my beliefs. Lets imagine that the LDS are wrong, and it is only Heaven and Hell and that God will send most people to Hell if they do not believe a certain way. I suppose that may mean he will send me to Hell even though I love him with all my heart. If that is the type of extreme, fearful being that he is, then what can I do about it? So do I drop my beliefs out of fear? Or do I continue to seek for Spiritual truth. I feel as though the Spirit has testified to my spirit of certain things that would be very hard to deny. And many of those experiences have happened in the Temple. I want to continue to seek Spiritual truth through reading scripture, pondering and prayer and I feel like I am headed in the right direction as long as my beliefs cause me to love God and worship him, accept my Saviors atonement and try to follow his example. The first commandment is to love God and the second is to love my neighbor. When I serve those around me in everyway I can, and when I do family history work, when I go to the Temple and do works for the dead, it is out of pure love for my neighbor. Thoughts? I am not sure I have answered your question.
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I need to carefully try to understand your thoughts and that will take some time, plus I need to concentrate/work on a few other things for a bit so if it takes me a few days, don’t think I’ve forgotten you.
ReplyDeleteBut just real quick, regarding authority for baptism, I’m not aware of the Bible saying anything about the need for authority, and you know me—I try to make the Bible my sole authority for all things pertaining to faith and practice. (I say “try” because I know there can be things influencing me that I might not even be aware of.) Plus, the whole priesthood authority issue is another thing we don’t see eye to eye on.
And regarding my view of baptism in terms of salvation, like John 3:5 and other passages, I could give you a detailed explanation of how baptism fits into the picture from an evangelical viewpoint. Not to try to convince you, but if you’re interested in knowing the perspective. But only if you’re interested.
ok. Thanks for giving me food for thought as well. I am beginning to understand where you are coming from in your belief in an inerrant Bible and sola scriptura and I hope you are starting to see where I am coming from as I focus on learning spiritual truth through the spirit (and I know I do not always get it right nor does anyone). I hope that we can continue to respect each other. What I find hard with the GLM and the John MacArthurs of the world is that they appear to say they or their beliefs are better than others to the point where they damn others to Hell (in my dramatic mind they may as well be trying to kill me) and I feel like that thought process can influence how they actually see people in general regardless of religious beliefs. Their actions run counter to the plain and simple teaching of Jesus Christ to love our neighbors. I believe in learning spiritual truth through spiritual means but I understand why people seek truth in other ways. We choose what we believe and many factors influence those beliefs and I am grateful that my eyes are being opened to respect the beliefs of others (of any belief system) who are just trying to live good lives and leave the world a better place for others. I believe that if you are trying to be like Jesus whether you believe in him or not, (mostly meaning you are trying to love others and do good), and if you are open to learning, then you are pointed in the right direction and that is something God can work with in this life and the next. Anyways, Thanks again for the visits!
ReplyDeleteYeah, I think I’m understanding where you’re coming from. I’m glad if I’ve been able to help you understand the evangelical point of view a little better. I pray God’s blessings on you as you continue your journey.
ReplyDeleteHey Katherine, I'll probably respond today to your response to my GLM comment but I'd like to know if I can call you by your first name. I don't want to come across as impersonal but I also don't want to violate your YouTube privacy especially since you changed your YouTube name a couple of times recently.
ReplyDeleteHi Katherine, just a short note to let you know that I came upon a YouTube channel that's only been around since March called "Hello Saints." It basically just an evangelical pastor who says he's exploring the LDS church and sharing his thoughts along the way. I haven't seen too many of the videos yet but he seems to be fairly well received by LDS folks who comment, as far as I can tell. I think you'd find him more to your liking than the GLM channel. While I *think* he is firmly evangelical, I would say that he's as non-confrontational as you'll find. Anyway, I thought of you when I found this.
ReplyDeleteI'm assuming you get email notifications of my occasional posts here. I just want you to know that the response to your last comment on GLM was NOT from me. A while back I used my other YouTube account, inXalone. The recent response was from In Christ Alone, which means the same thing, but is a different account.
ReplyDelete